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Rejection of hypothesis A is not justified

Posted by MarKos on 14 Jul 2008 at 11:30 GMT

Hypothesis A assumes that the overshoot of receptor phosphorylation is generated by autophosphorylation and dephosphorylation at the plasma membrane only. For a model to be acceptable, the authors require the ability to produce an overshoot and a maximal value of at least 150 % of the steady state value. In addition, at least 35 % of the receptors should remain unphosphorylated.

One model that satisfies all conditions is sufficient to prevent the rejection of a hypothesis. A very simple model that satisfies all requirements consists of three states: IR_0, IR_p and IR_g. IR_0 is the unphosphorylated receptor that can be phosphorylated to IR_p. IR_p is dephosphorylated to IR_g which is an unphosphorylated intermediate state filling the gap between the original unphosphorylated receptor and the phosphorylated receptor.
The occurring reactions

IR_0->IR_p
IR_p->IR_g
IR_g->IR_0

correspond to the reaction rates

r0=p1*IR_0
r1=p2*IR_p
r2=p3*IR_g

and define the differential equations

(d/dt)IR_0=-r0+r2
(d/dt)IR_p=r0-r1
(d/dt)IR_g=r1-r2.

Choosing p1=0.3, p2=0.8, and p3=0.1 as parameter values and IR_0=1, IR_p=0 and IR_g=0 as initial conditions, the simulation results match the experimental data set quite well. In particular, the requirements above are fulfilled. This holds for a wide range of parameter values.

The state IR_g contributes a significant fraction to the total receptor in the steady state of this proposed model. Therefore, the main question is that of whether it is biologically acceptable that the state IR_g shows a high steady state concentration.

The authors consider qualitatively similar models, in particular the model M_m,PTP. A hallmark of all these models is the presence of intermediate unphosphorylated states in the reaction chain connecting the phosphorylated and the unphosphorylated receptor.

Such models can satisfy all requirements necessary for accepting hypothesis A. In this case, at least 25 % of all receptors in the steady state have to be in an intermediate unphosphorylated state as it is IR_g in our model and the state (IR*Ins)*PTP in the model M_m,PTP.

The authors assume that all these intermediate unphosphorylated states are complexes of the unphosphorylated receptor and a phosphatase which they characterize as unphysiologic. Therefore the authors reject a whole class of models and finally hypothesis A.

This argumentation bases on two major assumptions:

1) All intermediate receptor states in the reaction chain connecting the phosphorylated and the unphosphorylated receptor are complexes of the unphosphorylated receptor and a phosphatase.

2) It is unphysiologic that 25 % of all receptors in the steady state are in such an intermediate state.

However, assumption 1) is much too restrictive. There are many other possible interpretations for the state IR_g which can be interpreted as a generalized equivalent to the state (IR*Ins)*PTP in the model M_m,PTP. Two of these possible interpretations are a special conformation of the receptor and a complex of the receptor with a structural protein. All these possibilities could be characterized by a relatively high steady state concentration.

Using an unspecified intermediate state as IR_g is legitimate as the authors make wide use of other intermediate states without defining their nature. In the model structure M_m,c they even allow for an unlimited amount of intermediate states in a reaction chain connecting the unphosphorylated receptor and the phosphorylated receptor.

In addition, the authors cite a reference showing that more than 90 % of the original pool of receptors remains unphosphorylated [14]. Therefore, the presence of an unphosphorylated intermediate receptor state (such as IR_g) with a high steady state concentration is a realistic possibility.

Assumption 2) is only of interest if assumption 1) holds, which is not the case. In addition, assumption 2) is not supported by references and is therefore not strong enough to reject a model structure or a hypothesis.

Altogether, a model was presented that satisfies all requirements of hypothesis A. The rejection of hypothesis A is therefore not justified.

RE: Rejection of hypothesis A is not justified

GunnarCedersund replied to MarKos on 22 Nov 2008 at 20:27 GMT

Dear Dr. Koschorreck,

Thank you for your comment on our article. We think that this opportunity for commenting and answering easily online provided by PLoS is a very good invention -- we do need to find better ways of evaluating and discussing scientific results concerning systems biology, and this could very well turn out to be useful for that. We are therefore sorry that we are answering this comment so late after its submission.


Regarding your specific comments on our article, we agree with most of them, but also think that most of them (including your proposed model and your results and concerns regarding its analysis) already are commented upon in our original article.


More specifically,

The rejection of Hypothesis A is dependent on a number of assumptions, of different characters, most of which are mentioned in the article. For instance, it is built on the assumption that we have tested all model structures satisfying Hypothesis A, and this is clearly not the case (even though we test an infinite number of models through the model structure M_{m,c}). Other assumptions are related to the type of dynamics we work with, such as the assumption of mass-action kinetics. These are also not fulfilled, since many of the reactions occur in a local environment with different ability to move in different directions. It is quite possible that any of these violations are severe enough to invalidate the rejection. In fact, it is very plausible that some of them do. Still, the statement "if these assumptions are true, the hypothesis may be rejected" holds. Also, such a statement is valuable since it narrows down the set of possible explanations, or governing mechanisms, for the IR receptor phosphorylation dynamics. It is now the job of future research to question these assumptions, and to further narrow down and analyse this set of possible explanations.

The exact same reasoning holds for the specific assumption that you are focusing upon in your comment: "that it is unrealistic to have more than 30% of IR in a state that has been dephosphorylated but that is not yet ready to be phosphorylated again" (the state represented by IRinsPTP in our model MmPTP, and IR_g in your model). We agree that this assumption might not hold, and that we have little direct evidence to support it. Therefore, it is important to note that an alternative and equivalent statement to our rejection statement based on this specific assumption is the following:

"If the observed dynamics are caused by IR interactions at the membrane only (and given the other assumptions above), there has to exist at least 30% of a state that is dephosphorylated but not yet ready to be phosphorylated already after 5 minutes following insulin stimulation."

which is interesting independently of whether the assumption holds or not.

(here it should be added that further work we have done in this direction, also including more experimental data, shows that this fraction actually exceeds 60%, i.e., seems to be even more extreme; presented at ICSB08)

This is our view on the matter, and it is basically what we tried to describe already in the original article; in the Discussion going through the various assumptions, and in Section "Models with the state (IRinsPTP)", where we derived and discussed the rejection of models with such (and similar) states. For this reason, our view on the matter has not really changed by your comment (which points out a model and an interpretation that we have already included and discussed in the paper). Nevertheless, we do feel that this discussion has further clarified this matter, and that the complete dialogue has clarified also our own understanding of what kind of contribution such a paper as ours is, and how its statements should be treated.

I hope this answer is clear and understandable, and we finally want to thank you again for taking the time to comment.

Gunnar Cedersund, for the authors

RE: RE: Rejection of hypothesis A is not justified

GunnarCedersund replied to GunnarCedersund on 22 Nov 2008 at 20:52 GMT

A slight reformulation of our response is in place:

The fifth last paragraph from below should rather say:

"which is interesting even though it is not known whether this assumption is fullfilled or not."

In fact, this statement could be thought of as a model-based prediction, which could be used to test/investigate hypothesis A further, simply by measuring IR_g in steady state

Gunnar